“The Geese & The Glenfiddich Revisited” – Anthony Phillips and Jonathan Dann talk exclusively to TWR about the 30th anniversary re-issues. Bibulous infusions by Alan Hewitt. Extraneous noises by Vic Stench. Photography and moments of lucidity by Anthony Hobkinson.
Thirty years! Has it really been THAT long? The Geese & The Ghost has always held a special place in my affections. After all, without it, TWR might never have come into being, and my thirty year love affair with the wonderful world of Genesis music might never have happened – so blame Anthony Phillips, not me, folks!
Yes, difficult to believe but true. Had I not made the tentative purchase of this album all those years ago, I would certainly not be writing this now! I had heard Genesis before this and had become instantly hooked on Wind & Wuthering from just one listening. But for reasons which even I don’t know, my very first foray into their music came with my purchase of this album. As with its counterpart from the band itself, The Geese… had something special about it and thirty years later, it still does!
So, what better way to celebrate the auspicious occasions of TWR’s 20th and the album’s 30th anniversaries than by interviewing the musician responsible for it. Well, we couldn’t get him to talk to us, so we settled for Vic Stench instead!
Seriously though, over to Anthony and Jonathan for the low down on this marvellous project...
TWR: We’re here to talk about the re-issue of The Geese &
The Ghost, Wise After The Event and 1984. Rather than talking about how the
albums were originally made, we’re more interested in the re-mastering
process and the additional material that was found for each of them. When did
you first start digging up material for them, if that’s the right expression?
JD: I think it dates back to 2000 – we’d compiled and released
Archive Collection Volume One in 1998 and I’d continued to delve through
Ant’s tape archive to see what other material there was from different
eras. From that we had the idea to do Archive Collection 2 and at the same time
I was looking at the different recording formats that Ant had used in the past.
Of particular interest was the period between September 1974 and last 1979 when
he had the two TEAC 4-track machines – there were plenty of tapes recorded
in this format but if we wanted to access any of it then we would need a suitable
machine as well as the dbx noise reduction system which was used on the recordings.
So I looked around to see if I could locate a machine in working order which
I eventually did from a shop in Bristol and I found a dbx unit from a place
in Manchester. With this equipment in place I was then able to listen to the
original four-track tapes from the first phase of recording The Geese &
The Ghost. So this was the starting point for the whole thing. It was a big
surprise and very interesting to hear things like the title track of Geese just
as the basic two-guitar version played by Ant and Mike without any of the overdubs.
We thought this could be a possible extra track should Geese ever be re-issued
in the future.
The next thing was a happy co-incidence of having the dbx noise reduction. I’d
been looking through Ant’s tapes and found two boxes full of reels that
were labelled ‘Geese mixes’. These turned out to be different mixes
from the original sessions for the album in 1975 and I spotted from the labels
that they had been recorded using dbx noise reduction as well so I was able
to decode that using the unit I had got hold of. One of the tapes I tried playing
was the title track of the album and I could see it had splices in it where
edits had been made. It quickly dawned on me that this must be the original
master of the track and that it was being heard again for the first time since
1975.
TWR: On the subject of the master tapes themselves, have all of the original
tapes now been found?
JD: That’s a difficult one to answer in a sense because there are
master tapes from different stages of the album’s production. For instance,
the tape that I found of the title track wouldn’t have been the tape used
to cut the original vinyl release – it would have been transferred to
another tape with various processes like EQ and limiting applied to it in order
to create a final master. That second tape may then have been copied again and
processed further to create a production master so each time you would be dropping
a generation. For the re-issue of The Geese we’ve been able to go back
to either first generation tapes in some places or the absolute original tapes
which are essentially no generation with a dramatic improvement in the sound
quality.
The source tape used for the Virgin CD release was a production master from
Trident Studios which we believe was third generation. For the previous CD release
that Passport put out that came from an unknown source where the tapes had been
partly demagnetised as there’s a tell-tale fluttering sound that can be
heard in places on the CD.
TWR: Were there any surprises that came to light from the original tapes?
AP: The one key thing that we came across was a section in Henry that
had been omitted because of perceived record company pressure, although it’s
unfair to try and blame it on anybody. The feeling at the time was that we had
to try and keep things moving and early into Henry the thought was that we weren’t
getting on with it fast enough. It’s a typical paranoia when you don’t
have an audience and you’re worried that people may only be half listening.
The original order was Fanfare, Lutes Chorus and then Misty Battlements was
interpolated if that’s the right word before a reprise of the Lutes theme
and then the War section. Because of this perceived worry we’d skipped
the reprise and had this sudden leap from the quiet 12-strings into the War
section. It’s a standard Rock thing of shocking people but it’s
not how it was originally planned. It’s almost as if you have a dream
sequence between the two Lutes Chorus pieces before the scene changes to war
but with the decision to take out the reprise meant that we lost that by moving
on rapidly. The trouble is that people will have got so used to the track as
it has been so for so long.
TWR: So has this been restored in the track?
AP: Absolutely – it was there in the original mix and was then
pulled out. Initially, as with anything that people are used to it will come
as a surprise but I hope in the fullness of time they will realise that it’s
more natural.
TWR: This reminds me of Steve’s album Please Don’t Touch
where there are two tracks that are supposed to segue but on the original CD
version there was a huge gap between them which has now been corrected on the
re-mastered version but people are used to the gap being there and it takes
time to get used to hearing it in a different way.
AP: I know it can be difficult if people are so used to hearing something
but then often they want something different on a re-issue and this isn’t
doing for the sake of it; it’s pure authenticity.
TWR: I think that’s the main thing with a re-issue – to get
the album as it was originally intended before other things got in the way.
Was there anything else in a similar vein that came to light?
JD: That extra section in Henry was the main thing that came to light
just in terms of looking at the album itself and checking the various sources
for it so that the best results from the re-mastering can be obtained. So there
was a little bit of detective work – or as Ant likes to call it sonic
sleuth work – to see what we could find. It was good that we started looking
at this stuff so far ahead of the potential release date so that when it came
to the re-mastering we knew which tape was going to be the source for which
track. So this process had largely been completed by 2004 and we were able to
listen to things and hear what they sounded like.
TWR: In the re-mastering process, is it like an oil painting where you
are restoring it, literally stripping it down to how it was or are you actually
improving it in the process?
JD: That’s a good question – I think it depends on what your
source is in the first place. If you’re working from the original master
and that hasn’t had a process applied to it like limiting in order to
cut the album on vinyl then the opportunity is there to use the greater dynamic
range that CDs can handle. In particular for the tapes we uncovered for The
Geese you couldn’t go back any further, it was as ‘original’
as you could get and in turn you can have the album sounding as it did in the
studio rather than as it did on record.
TWR: An issue that always fascinates me is when people talk about the
technical limitations in the old studios. Would there be anything that would
be a limitation in a new studio in putting this material together? Were there
any limitations that digital imposed on this process as opposed to analogue?
JD: There was one key issue with The Geese which was the noise reduction
used in the recording of the album, which was dbx. It’s not a format that’s
in regular use and in fact Simon Heyworth had to hire the relevant cards in
order to decode it on the original tapes so that he could then compare the different
source material.
AP: He spent a lot of time on it, listening to all these different things.
JD: After he’d compared the sources he did quite a lot of work
as well to remove static clicks as well as the overall dynamic of the album.
One of Simon’s memories of the recording of the album was that the dynamic
was quite difficult to deal with in the original recording. If you think about
The Geese it does go from very quiet to loud so that made things quite hard.
I think the dbx was the biggest technical challenge of the re-mastering.
TWR: This all began as a ‘what if’ – when did it become
a reality with a view to it becoming a proper release?
JD: I think that would have been around 2005 as that’s about the
time that Ant’s original contract with Virgin was coming to its end. As
we know, EMI held onto Geese, Wise and 1984 whilst allowing Voiceprint to re-release
the other titles in Ant’s back catalogue.
TWR: Was there any reason given why they wanted to hang on to those titles?
AP: I suppose they thought that those were the ones – particularly
with the Geese including Mike and Phil – that had the longest shelf life.
So they decided to hedge their bets on that one and that made it hard for us
to move.
JD: So that was the impetus really, seeing that the contractual period
was coming up to the end and the albums could at last be re-released. It was
at that point that we really started “operation re-issue” if you
like – we’d had a dip into some of the tapes for The Geese &
The Ghost but hadn’t looked at the other albums that much at that point.
The next stage was essentially finding every tape that Ant has for each of the
albums and delving through them to establish what potential extra material there
might be.
TWR: Are you now relatively sure that you’ve found all the relevant
material or since the re-issues were completed have you been given any more
surprises?
JD: Yes – with Wise After The Event, some of the original 4-track
home demo tapes that Ant recorded couldn’t be found and it’s only
in the last few weeks that they’ve come to light. That aside, by the time
I had been through all the tapes that Ant had I’d got a good idea of what
was available. As we have established the Archive Collection series as an outlet
for anything interesting of a historical nature, I remember saying to Ant that
we could always use that should anything come to light that was felt to be worthwhile
after we’d completed the selection of extra material. Going through all
the tapes I did find that perhaps I hadn’t realised what I’d let
myself in for – in total just from the original 4-track tapes for first
part of the recording for Geese I estimate that I ended up transferring around
seven hours of material. I think I should mention that a sizeable amount of
that is made up of experiments of overdub ideas on the original tracks and there’s
a lot of repetition of the same sections of tracks just with different instruments
used to play the same parts.
TWR: How many different tape formats did you end up encountering?
JD: On The Geese & The Ghost it was a mixture of 2-track stereo and
4-track recorded on the TEAC machines. When we start thinking about some of
the other albums then we get into the realm of other formats. With Wise After
The Event there were other things that were considered – there was the
idea of the original running order for the album and the planned EP that would
accompany the album release. We did locate the master tapes for that –
in fact in contrast to the situation with Geese, it became almost a running
joke how many different sets of master tapes we found for Wise After The Event.
But out of those we did find the original masters as well as production masters
so that was useful to have – these all came from Trident Studios and the
labelling and dating on the labels was pretty accurate.
TWR: Out of curiosity, were there many tracks that you found that haven’t
been released so far?
JD: Yes – I did find that for all the albums there are things recorded
during the original sessions that weren’t used on the final album or in
some cases for other projects. For instance, I found the original piano demo
of Movement 3 of Tarka which Ant recorded in June 1975 between the end of the
4-track phase of recording Geese and the later sessions on Tom Newman’s
barge. The original running order on Wise After The Event was an obvious one
to consider and we did seek opinions from a number of people about the idea
of changing the running order on the re-issue but in the end we decided to stick
with the running order as people know it. We then started to look to see what
potential extra things there might be for Wise and 1984 and in terms of what
existed as 2-track stereo mixes there was only a finite amount in that format.
One point of reference I’d kept tabs on was when albums were being re-issued
by bands I like and in particular I spotted that the early Caravan albums had
been re-mastered and re-issued with extra tracks being sourced for some of them
as new mixes from the original multi-track tapes. This got me thinking that
with the Virgin contractual period coming to an end Ant would be free to release
what he wanted and he also has all of the original multi-track tapes. Many artists
are not so fortunate in this respect. In tandem with this, developments in recording
technology have now meant that having 24-track digital recording in a home studio
environment is a reality and I’ve upgraded my existing set-up to an Alesis
HD24 which is very cost-effective in terms of the hard drives that it uses.
So there we had two things that it might be possible to make use of for the
re-issues – the original tapes and a digital format that they could be
transferred to. The obvious question was how to get the tapes transferred and
I found the answer to that in the form of a company called FX who are based
in Acton in West London. They offer a variety of things including a rental service
for equipment and instruments and also have a Copyroom which specialises in
the transfer of tapes from one format to another. With this in mind I suggested
to Ant that it might be possible to get some of the original tapes for 1984
transferred from the 8-track format on one-inch tape.
To cut a long story short I got in touch with FX and arranged to do a transfer
of the 1984 tapes. To do this the tapes first have to be baked as most of them
will now shed the oxide from the surface of the tape. Once that had been done
we did a transfer of the tapes and that was interesting as the tapes hadn’t
been played for over 25 years and there’s not much in the way of documentation
for them in terms of what is recorded on what track. Also, 1984 was recorded
in sections and edited together during the later stage of recording so as we
monitored the transfer we were of course hearing the tracks in their raw unedited
state. So in this initial session we transferred the two original 8-track reels
for 1984 and it was only as they were transferred that a piece that wasn’t
on the album came to light – I could see Ant had written the working title
Scale Strings for it on the original tape box and I noted it as a potential
extra track. To make it worthwhile in terms of the time involved in getting
the material to FX I also took along some tapes from a related project that
we’d not been able to find much in the way of material from which was
the music that Ant did for Rule Britannia. Having done all this, the next time
I came to see Ant I had prepared a brand new mix of 1984 with some sections
without the drumbox for the first time and also some of the Rule Britannia material.
Having done this I think we could see that we had the makings of the extra CD
for 1984.
The final part of the puzzle was to look at the material for Wise After The
Event – we’d found some interesting demo material but there were
one or two tracks that we didn’t have variations of. I wondered what we
could do with this (at this point, Ant starts playing the introduction to Birdsong
on guitar) – we could listen to Birdsong perhaps?
AP: Good team work! This is so professional! (laughter)
JD: Ant does have the original multi-track tapes for Wise but they are
16 and 24-track so accessing them would be way ahead of anything that we’d
tried before but I thought we could give it a go. Ant very kindly agreed and
so another transfer session at FX was arranged. This meant that we could access
all the 24-track recordings for the songs on the album and check out things
like the number we’re hearing right now (Ant plays the introduction to
Now What on guitar)…
AP: I haven’t played that for about thirty years!
JD: People may well have heard the original demo version of Now What
on the first Archive Collection so I thought that it would be interesting to
go through the 24-track master and see if it would be possible to highlight
some parts that are quite quiet in the final mix or perhaps were not even heard
at all. An instrumental mix seemed to be the best variation we could have in
contrast to the album version. Ant did remind me that the album mix did take
two days to complete and asked if I really wanted to try doing it! It’s
by far the most complicated mix I’ve ever attempted in terms of what is
happening on the different tracks. It was also really useful that we had most
of the original track sheets for the album so it was possible to see what was
on which track. The sheet for Now What has been carefully put together so that
made things so much easier.
Just in terms of the original tapes from the Wise sessions, the original recording
was done on 16-track at Essex Studios in London and I think in total there are
12 reels from that phase of the recording. There’s more material from
the sessions that hasn’t been heard but almost certainly they will just
be the reject takes of the basic backing tracks for each of the songs. In an
ideal world with unlimited time and funds I would have got all of those tapes
transferred but I doubt there is anything unique on them. The only other track
recorded during the Geese sessions as a potential track for the album was a
new version of Silver Song (on cue, Ant plays the intro to Silver Song on guitar)
so we’ve included a version of that on the extra CD along with the planned
single version from 1973 that Ant recorded with Mike and Phil.
TWR: The albums have been re-mastered in the conventional stereo format.
Was any thought given to re-mastering them in 5.1 and if so what happened to
that?
JD: No, there was no real thought of doing them as 5.1 mixes. Of the
three albums I think that 1984 would lend itself quite well to being mixed in
that format having various elements panning around. I think the costs involved
in doing that would prove to be prohibitive.
TWR: Were there any ‘sticky shed’ problems with the original
tapes?
JD: Yes there were. What’s interesting is that you do get some
albums using different brands of tapes and so some tapes are perfectly playable
and others not. All the stereo masters for Wise After The Event are on a brand
of tape called Racal Zonal which plays fine. Geese and 1984 both used Ampex
tape stock so that required baking before the tapes could be played. The multi-tracks
for Wise After The Event are all on Ampex and even after baking had to be slowly
re-wound on the machine before playback as a precaution to avoid any damage.
After completing the re-masters of Geese, Wise and 1984 a deal was arranged
with Disk Union in Japan to re-issue not only those three albums but also the
majority of Ant’s back catalogue in Japan. We checked through some of
the album masters and felt in particular on reviewing Back To The Pavilion that
there was plenty of potential to improve the sound quality of that album by
re-mastering it from scratch. The only source of master tape for the album were
some copy masters dating from 1983 which I suspect are second or third generation.
So the challenge there was to re-assemble the album from scratch, by locating
all the original tapes it was compiled from, bearing in mind that the album
was a compilation of tracks from different times. So it was back on with the
sonic sleuth work which was ultimately successful and the album sounds a lot
better overall as a result.
AP: I think it’s great to have these new versions – obviously
for Geese which goes without saying, but particularly for Wise After The Event
which has been very hard to get hold of in the past. Also the fact that it’s
not just a chuck away extra CD with the albums but an extra disc with some ‘proper’
stuff on it that’s had some thought put into it.